Glitter catching on the studio floor in tiny mosaics — honestly, the perfect partner for indie-pop heartbreak. So it’s no surprise that five years ago, singer-songwriter Nathalie Miller booked her very first studio session on New Year’s Eve. Because what’s more indie than ringing in a fresh start while spiraling through an existential countdown? Since then, she’s ticked off each metaphorical second toward her debut EP, made especially for you, and now, her upcoming release, like you used to — a whirlwind of introspection that spins us right back into kansas. The lead single, ‘kansas,’ wrestles with the question: can men and women ever really just be, or are we all doomed to subconsciously audition for the role of “emotionally available mom” until a girlfriend steps in and takes over the job description?
We caught up with Nathalie to talk all things gender dynamics, emotional labor, and the surreal new music video — where, in a painfully on-the-nose twist, a controlling male director literally hijacks her set. Spoiler: it’s as uncomfortable (and brilliant) as it sounds.
‘kansas’
‘kansas’ feels really fresh because it’s not about a friends-with-benefits breakup—it’s about the loss of a platonic friendship with a boy. What do you think it is about these kinds of friendships where boys lean on women to fill that almost maternal role in their lives?
I noticed that in a lot of my friendships with straight men, they used friendships with women as placeholders for the emotional support that their girlfriends and moms give them. It took me a while to notice because I think emotional intimacy is so common within female friendships that I wasn’t even aware I was doing it with my guy friends. The difference I noticed was the reciprocation in that care. I remember a professor in college said (and this is off the top off my head so take it with a grain of salt) that boys are generally socialized to stop practicing emotional intimacy in friendships around ages 5 to 8 and girls never stop, so by the time you’re older, women have had tons of practice and men haven’t allowed themselves that.
I think emotional vulnerability is less common between men because of the standards of masculinity that they’re under, so a lot of the time, the only time they practice emotional intimacy is in their romantic relationships with women. I would be in these friendships where I’m taking on a lot of their feelings, but not receiving that support back, and then being ghosted when they got into relationships because they viewed the emotional labor I was doing as a relationship thing. That would always make me feel so strange cause I truly viewed them as just friends, but they were associating emotional intimacy with romantic relationships, so I would get the boot when there was a love interest. It would make me question the whole friendship, like was that not platonic? Was I taking on the role of girlfriend without knowing it?
Do you have a favorite lyric from ‘kansas’—one of those lines that people can really angst over and sit with?
I like “I think of the last time we talked and you told me you know where the guns are” cause it makes me giggle. It’s a blunt lyric in a really sparkly atmosphere; I think of it kind of like a lyrical jumpscare. I think it sums up the weight of being responsible for someone’s emotional state, playing with their external consciousness/moral compass, and the immense stress of that.
What made ‘kansas’ the right song to lead with as the first tease for your upcoming EP, like you used to?
Sonically, I felt it was an engaging start. It’s definitely an indie-pop song, but because we (my producer Brian Charles and I) were experimental and genre-less in the way we went about recording ‘kansas,’ it kinda catches your ear in a “what is that” kind of way. It’s also a good middle ground emotionally, sonically, and tempo-wise with the rest of the songs.
There’s one that’s weirder and one that’s more commercial, and some that are sadder and some that are more upbeat. It’s hopefully a good toe dip into the rest of the EP. I also just realized earlier today that a lot of the songs on this EP are tied to the experience of being a girl, so it introduces that viewpoint too.
The Making Of Music Videos
The ‘kansas’ music video has this showgirl-esque energy, with a male figure directing the photoshoot—almost as a metaphor for the control he tries to have over your life. What metaphor did you most want to shine through in that video?
We were kind of riffing off a “losing it” moment and wanted to play off that. Chris came up with the concept of a creepy director at a shoot after I explained what ‘kansas’ was about and Palmer [Wells, co-director] came onto the project a couple days before we shot, so it was a whirlwind of a shoot. We wanted to translate the feeling of hitting your breaking point with someone and not shy away from the anger of it.
On your YouTube channel, the behind-the-scenes clip for the ‘mark like cain’ music video shows you building things from scratch—like painting a clown in your signature blue makeup and even crafting a moon—that would normally be handled by a big-budget production team. What’s something about making a music video that you wish more people realized, but usually never crosses their minds when they watch the final cut?
I think that when your budget is really small and your team is just your friends, you have to get really creative about how you’re gonna make a music video. This last video for ‘kansas’ was the first time I hired a team and stepped back just a little, but especially for ‘mark like cain’ where I made all the set pieces/props from cardboard, music videos are so much work and so time consuming. I’m not sure I ever thought about it before I started releasing music, but you would think that since they’re shorter and the songs can do a lot of the storytelling, they would be easier (or at least quicker) than other shoots. But it’s really hard to strike the balance of making sure the song is the star and the video is still compelling, but not overshadowing the music.
You lived in New York studying photography and working as a model, and that visual eye really comes through in your music—especially the animated drawings in the made especially for you visualizers. What elements from your photography background do you think have carried over into how you style your artwork and visuals now?
Even though I quit all my photography jobs, I’m glad I have the degree and experience because I feel like visuals are really essential to music, especially with cover art. It’s like world-building and making an immersive place for the music to live, a face for the sound. I use those skills in every release because I’m kind of annoyingly specific about cover art. I’m a bit looser with music videos, but for made especially for you and the ‘kansas’ single art, I did everything by myself.
I had my brother, Max Miller, 3D render the cover art for like you used to, and he would probably tell you I was persnickety about it, cause I want to make sure it feels super me. Except I can’t see him using the word “persnickety.”
With music videos, it’s more of a collaboration cause it’s different from photography, but I guess with photos I feel more in my element and able to take the reins. It’s nice to not have to rely on someone and decide “I’m gonna take cover art pictures right now” when an idea pops up. It’s a similar thing with the visualizers. A lot of times, music is super reliant on other people’s schedules, and it’s nice to be like, “I need this now, so I’m gonna make it now.” I also just like an excuse to draw.
like you used to
Both made especially for you and your new EP, like you used to, carry this “letter” vibe, with the recurring use of “you” in the titles. Why was that second-person framing something you wanted to emphasize?
I’d never noticed that I had done that, but I like the idea of the titles being letter-ly. I got the name for made especially for you from these tags my Great-Grandma D would sew into clothing she made for people. They said “made especially for you by Charlotte” and I always thought that was so cute.
I got like you used to from the title of one of the songs on the EP. It was a song I had the idea for for close to two years, but it only started flowing when I switched the perspective from talking about the experience to telling the experience like a story addressed to what I imagine as a younger me that the listener gets to play. I think that’s what I like about using second person, is including the listener as their own character, like it’s their EP or song, too.
You’ve mentioned that you like “making it sound like there are a lot of people on the record,” even though at the core it’s really just you and producer Brian Charles. Why is creating that layered sense of community in the sound important to you?
I love a stripped-back acoustic song, but when I’m in the studio – Rare Signals in Cambridge, MA – and Brian can play all these instruments, it’s like, why wouldn’t I add 10 layers of different guitars, a banjo, and a toy piano? I also think a lot of the music I listen to is made by bands, so my references sound like a lot of people. I always say I have an embellishment problem where I can’t stop adding little layers, though I’m not sure “problem” is the right word because I like how it sounds. I think I’m just a maximalist in all parts of my life: my decorating, my clothes, my makeup, my friendships, and my music.
Finally, you’ve also said that when fans or friends put themselves into your lyrics, their interpretations are often miles away from what you originally intended. Is there a particular song of yours where you’re happy to let their version of the story completely take over?
I would love to hear how people interpret the song ‘witches don’t burn’ off of the new EP. I have a tendency to assign songs to a person, and ‘witches don’t burn’ is kind of about an archetype of person who pops up in my life from time to time, so it draws up specific memories. If it’s like that for other people, I’m excited to hear cause I love when people relate to their own lives and share that with me.
In the past, ‘mark like cain’ seemed to mean a lot of different things to different people in a way I didn’t expect. I think women’s health in general is a sensitive topic, and there’s not a ton of media about it, so it covered a broad audience, and I was happy to hear it connected with people and how it applied to their specific situations.
What ‘kansas’ line is currently ruining your life (but, like, aesthetically)? Drop your lyrical obsessions on our socials — Twitter, Instagram, Facebook — before like you used to officially wreck us all on October 24.
TO LEARN MORE ABOUT NATHALIE MILLER:
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